Curse

moko · Oct 29, 2008, 03:54 PM // 15:54

let me put it this way:

my team of 4 rits and a melee killed faster than my team of 3 monks, me as rit and a melee.

my rit team never took any damage, had more pressure, was flamed more for having a bitch lineup.

i don't think that monks are bad, one or two along with other defensive sources are pretty nice. a solo rit will outperform a monk, always. in all cases.

if you face good players, you notice the difference between both. if you face noobs, well, i guess it really doesn't matter.

the monk bar is alright, i like it, it can be powerful, but the rit is just better.

conditions and hexes don't really need to be smitten off .. they'll be covered / reapplied faster. whenever there's a monk on my team i'm like .. great, crippled to hell and he can't do shit but smite the poison off. so you might as well just leave the conditions and hexes alone.

also, rits aren't vulnerable to interrupts. fc set on resto, fake one warding, get it on, get pwk and then just spam warding on recharge with some faking.

not as easy as brainless 1/4 skills spamming, but still, we're talking about good usage of the build, aye?

tl;dr:

monk - good; rit - better. and in the end, it doesn't matter, you are not going to lose due to your choice of support char. you'd probably leave match X either way.

The Meth · Oct 29, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

@darknecrid

There is no such thing as a spike in CB! If you got spiked its because you ignored the incredibly obvious 3 red dots running straight at you on your map. Gee, there are 2 warriors and an ele next to my character, why don't I stand around like a noob and hope my mediocre heal beats them? Also, its funny how you mention having having 120 or 240 extra health won't help at all vs a spike, yet getting a 100 health heal from wielder's boon will. Because the health from wielder's boon is somehow more helpful then that from a health shrine.

The advantage of monk is the condition and hex removal. Have fun trying to get away after a sin or an ele puts their respective hex on you. Monks can laugh them off. The only snare that can be covered (and therefor not possibly removed) is the ranger's cripple, but its so conditional that I have to ask why you were dumb enough to be hit by it in the first place. Rits will be about on par with healing (since spikes don't exist in CB), while doing slightly more damage. Monks get a few knockdowns and snare removal. Its a bit of a tossup really, getting snares off is much preferable in small sized 1v1s and 2v2s where you can need to get moving fast, but in a 4v4 or 5v5 fight where there are too many to be taken care of the rit would pull ahead with the higher damage and greater energy management (though any ranger or mesmer worth their salt is going to be interrupting it every time).

Also, don't even mention necromancers removing monks enchantments, necromancers are so useless otherwise in CB they don't deserve to be considered. Its akin to pointing out vocal minority as a counter to paragons. No decent player is going to be using them.

btw, apparently YOU didn't know the regen mechanics either, since you also said healing breeze was just 150 healing.

Ec]-[oMaN · Oct 29, 2008, 04:18 PM // 16:18

The only thing that makes the monk bar some what decent is the SOJ for a nice KD on a spike, other than that one monk teams with a rit or 2 will just out perform 2-3 monk teams. Rits have higher armor and contribute way more dmg overall to the battles. Direct spamable CC, aoe, nightmare weapon for frontline.

I've pretty much tried all the classes and I'll try and sum them up.

Assassin: My vote for the best frontline in CB. Spam-able ranged snare, teleport, best self heals out of the bunch because you can use 1 of the 2 on demand. A Knockdown and highest burst dmg.

Warrior: Takes too long to build adren. Self heal requires adren, bulls pretty useless as no one kites. Hate Tigers Stance, drawback is crap, recharge too long, give me frenzy. Probably the most useless of the melee, maybe even the most useless of all the classes.

Dervish: Decent dmg, has a snare, IAS, on demand speed boost, probably second highest burst dmg.

Ranger: Decent template but needs more in Expertise. Best used interrupting sins, heal breeze, or weapon warding, can cause insta wipes if used correctly. Highly annoying movement control, best of the bunch in that regard.

Elementalist: Decent dmg, have two of these on your team and if they just continue to pound on something from distance cause death, movement control.

Monk: Template is balanced all around. Can't really outheal anything that has condition stack+ a degen hex or two can completely destroy heal breeze, tbh really sucks and can't stop much burst dmg. Two KD's that people seem to use on casters more than melee. All the wannabes hitting their smite skills instead of healing first (heal breeze+vigorous+rod) and trying to heal after team mate is dead.

Rit: My vote for most imba template in the CB. Highest armor of the casters, party heal, pain train stopper(weapon warding), repeatable direct dmg CC, aoe dmg, increases melee dmg nightmare weapon.

Mesmer: What's there to say?, get a good one and life becomes easier.

Won't bother mentioning the necro or the para, but I will say this necro is good for handling those condi's and nothing else really, if that bar had weakness also then we could talk.

Feathermoore Rep · Oct 29, 2008, 04:20 PM // 16:20

See what your not taking everything into account in the 2v2 spike. A warrior has to build adrenaline. The dervish has a lower armor. The necro can't spike. The mesmer is an annoyance. And paragons are fail. You're instant worries as a monk are the Sin and Ele.
As well, all the professions have fairly weak self heals. As well you still have a character to do dmg with you. The greatness of the monk is the ability to simultaneously do dmg while healing/relieving pressure from conditions/hexes. All the monk has to do is survive long enough for one character to be pressured out by its teammate. If two melee are attacking, and you put rod up and triggers for say 50dmg. Thats 50 dmg negated from your team and directed back at the enemy. Thats a 100 dmg swing in total health chart in your favor. Smite condition DW is a heal for 100 without the divine favor bonus. Bane and soj, both do dmg and negate an attack/spell at the same time. Vig and HB provide subtle healing; but 16 hp casting spells or attacking over a 10s battle (which is really short), thats over 100hp passively regen'd. All of these instantly put you at an advantage in a 2v2 situation. The only trouble you'd run into is if they had a ranger or mesmer who could reliably interrupt the monk. That puts the other two in a 1v1 fight. however with 8 skills on your bar, they only have two interupts, meaning you have 6 other skills to support your teammates. A monk doesn't have to be able to beat the mesmer or ranger, it simply has to outlive it long enough to support its teammate to pressure out 1 of the opponents. Once one person is down the battle is 2v1.

The only 2v2 battles i've lost as a monk have been involving an assassin and/or dual melee, because the monk simply can not out regen the dps of two melee with conditions. However the monk still can win a battle versus dual melee. Timed banes and soj, and good kiting and key rod casts are pivotal. Against two good players, it would come down to timing and a little luck. But i will give you that more times than not, the dual melee should win.

The pressure relief and simultaneous dmg and small healing from the monk is an instant advantage in almost every situation.

(Its class time - ill be back later to finish)

Alleji · Oct 29, 2008, 04:22 PM // 16:22

I stayed up till 5 AM last night on a 43 win streak. Wish people wouldn't have had to leave... but I guess if they didn't, I'd fall over myself in about 10 more games. My team was initially 2 rangers, 2 dervs and a mesmer, but a ranger and a derv had to leave pretty soon (after 6 and ~10 wins, IIRC) and we got two monks as replacements.

Now, here's something I learned about monks from that streak... SoJ is actually pretty underrated. Yes, monks are worse healers than rits (bhavv, you are still baed, stfu), but SoJ friggin owns. Not only we had interrupts coming from 4 different sources, but somewhere around 20 wins we started working together well enough that we'd call a target, monks would chain-KD it and I'd plant a dshot into whatever it tried to cast after it got up, while the derv was beating the crap out of something else. Most games from there usually ended in 20-1 or 20-0.

So I guess I'll have to revise my take on CB from "moar rits = moar winning" to "moar interrupts = moar winning". Monks are better when played offensively, trying to do as much damage to enemy melee as possible and KDing it instead of spamming shitty heals and assisting on called targets with SoJ or just one of the pewpew signets. Healing breeze isn't any different from troll, except you can use it on other people. (And it stacks with troll for epic mending awesomeness!) Trying to keep someone up with it against half-decent damage is pointless, better to kill their damage.

Oh and we used tactics. Like going for battle cry first. It works. Crazy, eh?

bhavv · Oct 29, 2008, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Neither the Monk or the Rit can outlast being ganked by 3 enemies. Both however can outlast 2 enemies for quite a decent amount of time. I dont see based purely on healing as 'red bar up' numbers, how the Rit is actually any better then the monk.

The only benefit that they have over the monk is a direct heal. On the other hand, the monk has smite hex + condition. I see both classes as equally balanced, but I do not believe the 'monk sux becuz rit is betta!!!1111' argument.

And you should always be going for shrines, that isnt rally a new or original tactic.

DarkNecrid · Oct 29, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

There is no such thing as a spike in CB! If you got spiked its because you ignored the incredibly obvious 3 red dots running straight at you on your map. Gee, there are 2 warriors and an ele next to my character, why don't I stand around like a noob and hope my mediocre heal beats them?

So basically you just said spikes don't exist because of the radar? Really? You're kidding right?

Quote:

Also, its funny how you mention having having 120 or 240 extra health won't help at all vs a spike, yet getting a 100 health heal from wielder's boon will. Because the health from wielder's boon is somehow more helpful then that from a health shrine.

That 300+ Heal comes in over 15 seconds.

Most spikes happen in a couple seconds.

It isn't going to help you.

Quote:

The advantage of monk is the condition and hex removal.

gg I already established in my huge post why this is not very useful and so did Moko.

Quote:

Have fun trying to get away after a sin or an ele puts their respective hex on you. Monks can laugh them off. The only snare that can be covered (and therefor not possibly removed) is the ranger's cripple

No it isn't. Maybe if it was 1v1 24/7, but you have multiple people applying multiple shit to you at the same time. It doesn't work.

Quote:

Also, don't even mention necromancers removing monks enchantments, necromancers are so useless otherwise in CB they don't deserve to be considered. Its akin to pointing out vocal minority as a counter to paragons. No decent player is going to be using them.

They don't just remove Monk enchants, there is other enchants in the mode like Water Attunement, Lyssa's Aura, and Watchful Intervention.

Also did you just compare Enchantment Removal to a selective hard counter?

Quote:

btw, apparently YOU didn't know the regen mechanics either, since you also said healing breeze was just 150 healing.

I just said whatever he said in a rush, forgive me I didn't have the time to go into more detail until just recently. (I was sidetracked)

Quote:

There is no such thing as a spike in CB!

Seriously, anyone saying there isn't spikes in this mode is being silly or just playing with bad players 24/7. There is spikes in every PvP mode and nothing will ever change that. A spike by its very definition is a huge influx of something (damage/healing). Spike damage is more than possible, it happens pretty much every single game if you're playing with good people (ie: stop playing in dumb districts) more than once, and the Monk can't keep up. It's impossible. RoD can't handle that kind of pressure, and unlike a real game you don't have a bigger thing to apply afterwards, meaning your target is just going to die.

bhavv · Oct 29, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger Icarus

Unfortunately, I was on a team with 3 monks, including myself. At the start one monk declared "smitespike" and the other monk joined with him on a smiting frenzy, while I was left to heal...It didn't go well...at all.

It obviously depends on the player, not the build. A capable team with several monks is just bloody awesome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

That 300+ Heal comes in over 15 seconds.

Most spikes happen in a couple seconds.

It isn't going to help you.

How the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO does a team in CB 'spike' an opposing team with 840 health in 2 seconds? It cant be done, not even with 5 ellys. No one is on vent syncing a spike, IT IS RANDOMWAY with no spike syncronisation. You seriously need to stfu about CB, you have no clue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Seriously, anyone saying there isn't spikes in this mode is being silly or just playing with bad players 24/7. There is spikes in every PvP mode ...

There are no spikes in Randomway. The only PVP where there are spikes is TA, HA and GVG. Nobody is on vent, no one can spike. They can Gank by attacking the same target, but nothing is either syncronised or timed correctly to call it a spike.

I have never yet seen anyone in CB die in 2 seconds, maybe the mimunum time you can die in is around 5 seconds if you are bad and go killroy into an enemy mob. You are just talking out of your ass again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

They don't just remove Monk enchants, there is other enchants in the mode like Water Attunement, Lyssa's Aura, and Watchful Intervention.

Losing those enchants in the long run still means diddly squat. I'm playing my elly and my attunement gets stripped and I run out of energy. Oh well, lets just go cap a shrine instead then. Decent monks will always cover H Brezze with Vig Spirit. Oh wow, my vig spirit got stripped... so, erm, I'll just cast it again o.O.

Alleji · Oct 29, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

How the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO does a team in CB 'spike' an opposing team with 840 health in 2 seconds? It cant be done, not even with 5 ellys. No one is on vent syncing a spike, IT IS RANDOMWAY with no spike syncronisation. You seriously need to stfu about CB, you have no clue.

It's called spam "ctrl+spacebar" a target at 40% health and everyone presses T and rolls face on keyboard, resulting in big dommage.

You seriously need to stfu about PvP, you have no clue.

EDIT: Can't believe I missed this little gem in your post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Nobody is on vent, no one can spike.

LISTEN TO THIS GUY HE IS TEH GUILDWARS MASTER

bhavv · Oct 29, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

It's called spam "ctrl+spacebar" a target at 40% health and everyone presses T and rolls face on keyboard, resulting in big dommage.

You seriously need to stfu about PvP, you have no clue.

EDIT: Can't believe I missed this little gem in your post: LISTEN TO THIS GUY HE IS TEH GUILDWARS MASTER

Can you read correctly? I didnt mention that the person had 40% health, and 'Spikes' in PVP are done on targets still at full health. If you kill a taget on 40% health in 2 seconds, you havnt 'spiked' them in 2 seconds, you have to add the time it took to reduce them to 40% first!!! If you actually need to reduce an enemy to 40% health in PVP before you can spike them, then that is not a spike, and if you consider it to be one, it is a failure spike.

Sheeeesh!!!!

Randomway is not hight end PVP where you co-ordinate spikes, it is a totally different game and mechanic.

I am not even discussing real PVP here - HA and GVG, I am discussing a silly little cosume brawl that all of a sudden has spike teams with a random selection of team members with fixed skills. The only class that actually has any 'spike' skills is the elementalist.

I can 1 hit k.o warriors who have less then 50 health left with my monk, oh wow, the monk can spike enemies in just one hit!!! (Buy a sarcasm detector).

DarkNecrid · Oct 29, 2008, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Can you read correctly? I didnt mention that the person had 40% health, and 'Spikes' in PVP are done on targets still at full health. If you kill a taget on 40% health in 2 seconds, you havnt 'spiked' them in 2 seconds, you have to add the time it took to reduce them to 40%!!!

Sheeeesh!!!!

Randomway is not hight end PVP where you co-ordinate spikes, it is a totally different game and mechanic.

Even though you've basically already proven you have no clue, and used a bad example (why again, does the enemy team have both Health shrines? I guess maybe you're bad so that explains it.), it is entirely feasible to spike someone in 2-5 seconds. A single Assassin chain strikes for 265-326+ DW(+100)+Poison damage during this+Bleeding damage during this and that isn't including the critical strikes or the 16 armor ignoring life stealing Vampiric damage either. 2 of these/derv/war if you build the Adrenal is going to kill shit fast if they coordinate.

Also just because bad players are common doesn't mean there isn't people who can follow this command they added just recently called the Call command. You CTRL+attack someone, and like, it tells the dude(s) you're split with that you're attacking, and like, dude, he KNOWS and you can spike people together. I know, it surprised me too.

Just because you don't have Vent doesn't mean you can't spike.

bhavv · Oct 29, 2008, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

why again, does the enemy team have both Health shrines? I guess maybe you're bad so that explains it

Because I am on the emeny team and I went and capped them GG, we win, you lose. That makes me good, and makes u suck.

If your team doesnt have both health shrines, then someone on your team should be running to cap them.

I always have both health shrines capped before I ight in a good team, you are the bad player on my opposing team, not me.

moko · Oct 29, 2008, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Neither the Monk or the Rit can outlast being ganked by 3 enemies.

i dunno, i recall tanking various sins (even chaining all 3 impale through warding, but i still got it through in time), various times with a monk + ele + melee and various other things, also couple of rangers but it turns out hard when a mes is around and you're under heavy pressure and lack the energy to fake.

the rit has an incredible healing and tanking power .. are you by chance not using the + armor form PwK and the free heal from caretakers? and the free energy from essence? :P

Alleji · Oct 29, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Can you read correctly? I didnt mention that the person had 40% health, and 'Spikes' in PVP are done on targets still at full health. If you kill a taget on 40% health in 2 seconds, you havnt 'spiked' them in 2 seconds, you have to add the time it took to reduce them to 40% first!!!

Um, no.

How much PvP have you played, exactly, and was any of it GvG above 1000 level or HA past the first two maps? nevermind, forgot that HA is dead and the only maps are UW, nop, nop, nop, HoH.

If you have, you should know that a "spike" is not just 6 necros/eles/rits on vent, counting 3-2-1 and putting out no damage in-between. I think even a tuber with eyes can see that it doesn't happen in CB. Targets are often at less-than-full health against a pressure build and when you call that target and everyone hits it with something ("something" doesn't have to be 6x searing flames), that is the spike. And your awesome monk can do jack against that, short of KDing one attacking target because you can't prot it and you don't have a direct heal.

bhavv · Oct 29, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

I dont do GVG anymore (I used to during Proph - Elly flag runner, top 500 guild), and this isnt GVG, it is costume brawl. You fail at this discussion from the moment you compare it to GVG, good for you.

Randomway =/= GVG.

And I dont brag about my titles anymore, my Rank in HA doesnt matter when you are the one comparing costume brawl to GVG. Lawl @ u.

But since I already mentioned it earlier in this thread, I have Numchuck Skills if that counts, got it yesterday from a 24 win streak. But no that doesnt mean anything either, its just a meaningless title.

And I know from when I did HA that in a Spike team, you spike an opponent from the get go with full health (Ranger Spike, Necro Spike, Rainbow spike, done them all). If your group combines Degen, AoE, Damage prior to spiking, and relies on picking off weakened enemies to win, that isnt a spike team, it is probably a balanced team. Spikes in both HA and GVG are syncronised and timed together using vent. You do not get that in randomway.

HawkofStorms · Oct 29, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

So many people trolling each other in this thread. This is why I can't stand guru anymore. The goggles (mods), they do nothing!

Edit: and spike build =/= pressure build. Even pressure teams don't use the term spike. They will call targets, but they don't "spike"
If you are using the term "spike" in PvP, you damn well better know the difference.

Alleji · Oct 29, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I dont do GVG anymore (I used to during Proph - Elly flag runner, top 500 guild), and this isnt GVG, it is costume brawl. You fail at this discussion from the moment you compare it to GVG, good for you.

This discussion seems to be about the definition of "spike" because apparently you don't understand it.

I didn't even compare it to GvG, I just asked if you played any, because if you have, you probably would know your terms. (Even if I did, I'd say "costume brawl is very different from GvG and/or HA", because it's true, and that would be comparison, yet I would somehow fail for it.)

What's next? Costume brawl does not have basic game mechanics like... hitting shit to cause damage (=pressure) because those are GvG mechanics?

<Insert an obligatory personal attack here. I can't think of a fresh one right now.>

Alleji · Oct 29, 2008, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

If your group combines Degen, AoE, Damage prior to spiking, and relies on picking off weakened enemies to win, that isnt a spike team, it is probably a balanced team.

...and balanced teams, obviously, can't coordinate their burst damage, otherwise known as spiking?

DURR HURR AMIRITE?

EDIT: Would be nice of you to make new posts instead of editing additional stuff into the same one several times, so this looks more like a proper flamefest.

bhavv · Oct 29, 2008, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by moko

i dunno, i recall tanking various sins (even chaining all 3 impale through warding, but i still got it through in time), various times with a monk + ele + melee and various other things, also couple of rangers but it turns out hard when a mes is around and you're under heavy pressure and lack the energy to fake.

the rit has an incredible healing and tanking power .. are you by chance not using the + armor form PwK and the free heal from caretakers? and the free energy from essence? :P

I know how to use PWK + Wep of Warding, then spam Caretakers Charge and Wielders boon. But a group of three offensive characters should be able to take it down, might just be difficult.

Oh no wait a minute, you are going to get spiked in 2 seconds o.O.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

...and balanced teams, obviously, can't coordinate their burst damage, otherwise known as spiking?

DURR HURR AMIRITE?

Not without Vent you cant. But a balanced spike is still a rainbow spike if it requires several people to coordinate a spike attack over vent. You dont get anything like that in randomway. If you cant 'spike' down a target on full health, only one on 40% heath, then I'm sorry, but you arent in a spike group - The target will likely be infused by then. If you think you are then you probably joined the wrong team or something.

Costume Brawl at least does not have spikes in two seconds unless a target is already being ganked / clobbered for a long time. My monk has never ever yet died in two seconds, its more like 60 seconds at least to take him down when I am holding a shrine against 2+ people. When I face the full group, I have all the shrines capped already. If I dont have all the shrines capped, and I see a big enemy mob, I run the other way towards the nearest shrine to cap.

Alleji · Oct 29, 2008, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Edit: and spike build =/= pressure build. Even pressure teams don't use the term spike. They will call targets, but they don't "spike"
If you are using the term "spike" in PvP, you damn well better know the difference.

So when I'm playing on a team with a warrior, a dervish, two fire eles, a dom mesmer, a rit and two monks... in other words, a team that puts out considerable sustained damage, and the dervish calls "321 spike", the mesmer shatters enchant, rit uses a-rage on him, and the eles each throw something at the target, I should tell him that we're playing a pressure build and therefore it's improper to call such action a spike, it's "calling targets"?